The status is not quo.

[ladyfalcon]

So, I'm still really, really happy about Obama's victory. I'm glad for everyone else who's happy, too.

But I woke up this morning and my first thought was, "What the fuck, California?"

I don't mean to be harder on California than anyone else: Arizona, Florida, Arkansas, and Oklahoma all passed legislation or elected officials who they should be ashamed of.

But what really gets me, what really gets right up my left nostril, is California.

Because their fucking farm animal proposition, which provides for the comfort of animals being raised for food, passed with 63% of the vote, while the comfort and rights of actual human beings who are their friends and family and neighbors couldn't muster the extra 4% needed to continue to exist.

Who are these people? There are people out there who decided that they needed happy food animals more than they needed human rights, who ticked a box for yes on Prop 2 and also yes on Prop 8. Who the fuck are you, you people who couldn't live with sad meat but actively desired the continued second-class status of people?

Euphoria is an emotion that by its very nature is short-lived. I was euphoric last night. Today, it's time to wake up and look at what needs to be done now. Am I still hopeful? Do I still believe that "we can"? Obviously, or I'd have to kill myself. I just wish that we had gotten more of the work done en masse last night, and saved ourselves the continuing months and years of continued fighting. We had an opportunity, and we only partially grasped it, which is always a somber situation.

ETA: They're saying now that with only 400,000 votes between Yes and No on Prop 8, and from 3-4 million provisional and absentee ballots yet to be counted, the issue is officially still too close to call. My point that there's no way an animal rights issue should have a landslide victory while human beings have to struggle for their own happiness still stands, but I'm hanging on to hope until all the votes have been counted.

Comments

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

While I can't take away from that victory for animals- it was a very important anti-cruelty law, I don't understand CA.

I am more bothered by CA because they GRANTED the marriage right, then took it away. And I don't understand where it came from.

Los Angeles County voted YES.

Los Angeles. The part that includes Hollywood.

What? If that area couldn't find it to be a good and gracious humanity, what hope did any area behind the orange curtain? I am so disgusted to be in this state at the moment it makes me feel filthy and I detest CA for derailing my joy of last night.

[skadi.livejournal.com]

I'm really glad about the vote for the animals, but I still think this is a really good point:

Who the fuck are you, you people who couldn't live with sad meat but actively desired the continued second-class status of people?

No kidding, man. No kidding.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

I'm a libertarian. I don't think that animals have rights, in the sense of inviolable rights like life liberty &c., and I really don't think it falls under the government's purview to protect them. Animal cruelty horrifies and saddens me, yes, as it does any person who isn't a sociopath, but I can't bring myself to see increased government control as any kind of a victory.

And I want names of those people who voted Yes on both 2 and 8. I want to call them up and ask them what the fuck they were thinking. If you believe animals have rights and want to protect them, that is a position I can understand and respect if not support. It's when you want to protect the rights of your next hamburger while shitting all over the rights of your next-door neighbor that I want to get What the Fuck on your ass.

[thedelographer.livejournal.com]

There were commercials on tv here that claimed (falsely) that Prop 8 would require gay marriage to be taught in schools (whatever that means). Those ads might have been the difference.

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

I'm a human being and I totally disagree with you and your first paragraph, but ILU anyhow, so maybe we should just agree that we disagree? Animal rights is very important to me and since individual places can't see fit to let animals be able to turn around or sit once in their life before slaughter, I have no problem with the government mandating it. Not even from an animal rights perspective, it makes for better food industries and healthier meat/etc for the public to consume. I see this as a win for any one who respects animal rights and anyone who eats meat or animal byproducts and completely separate from human rights issues.

Again, you will never, ever convince me otherwise so we should just probably not discuss that topic any more.

I would rather go after the faith-based organizations (see: mormons in my home state UT) who felt the need to shove their religious beliefs into law. Also am more concerned where they are coming from and again, that LA county is counted among Yes people.

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

Ha, my last sentence totally answers the quote Skadi pulled out. Faith-based organizations on a crusade. That's who they are. The Mormon church piled resources into that cause. There were also huge evangelical bases in Irvine. And to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if Scientology had a mandate against it. The animals won because I don't think the churches decried against them, if they had it would have been no on 2 as well. It's depressing, people have no minds or consciences of their own.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

Is MARRIAGE even taught in schools? I went to private parochial school, so I had a half-assed religious education during my elementary years, but I don't remember ever being taught about marriage. If your parents have one, isn't that enough to teach you everything you need to know? (My parents' taught me enough to know that I don't want one).

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

Just here to butt in because I am still here (making sure I didn't come off as base in my reply up there, never sure, I really hope I didn't!) but no, not at all. That was a propaganda lie to incite the masses I guess.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

I just want to make sure you know that I'm not actually angry that Prop 2 passed. If I was a California voter, I would have voted against it, and been out-voted by a considerable margin, and got on with my life. I would be concerned about what it would do to already-rising food costs, but enough people have clearly taken this into consideration and decided that they can afford it, so that's fine. I like animals a lot and want them to be happy. That's not why I'm angry at all.

I am glad, however, to see that it doesn't seem like you'll be defriending me over this. There've been times over the last couple days when I've seriously considered taking people off my flist for tickling my annoyance, but that seems like an immature reaction in the face of other people being able to deal and move on.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

And I mean, there's not even any data showing a correlation between children being raised by a gay couple and turning out gay. I hardly think that if children were taught that gay marriage exists in schools that it would take otherwise-straight youngsters and "turn them gay," which I suppose is the ultimate fear. The religious right has to take care of the gay menace now so that it's eradicated by the time the grandkids grow up, I guess.

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

The thing is, incomprehensible as it seems, there are people who totally, 100 percent believe the "turn them gay" theory. I was brought up in UT, MORMON MECCA though I am anti-all-religions and have never even gone to church in my life and never will. (Disclaimer: I also know amazing, good, kind Mormon folk who are good normal people as well, it's the ignorant zealots I am complaining about now) When I was working there though I had a boss. Super conservative. I think it could have been the first time gay marriage was going through a bill like this in some state. His view was being gay was like gambling. If you legalized it, everyone would do it.

I kid you not.

We would ask him, is it such a razor edge? Would HE cross over if it became "ok?" (Honestly I think he would be he seemed like one of those American Beauty closeted sorts).

He never really had an answer than made sense, but yes, that was his belief.

He also though gayness was an invention of modern society and had only been around since 1920.

HELLO ANCIENT GREECE.

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

Ha, no way! We all get to believe what we want to believe! And you're coming from a logical stand point. I would never, ever defriend you (unless you voted yes on 8...).

I just want to say I also TOTALLY understand what you are saying, how can CA be so on top of animal rights and not human rights. To me, they are just so different I cannot compare the two them and must just be happy one thing came through.

I am also glad you are not mad at me! Sometimes I get hot headed, but don't know if I come off badly or not.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

I've tried writing this like four ways and it doesn't seem to be coming out right.

I'm not mad at you. I worry that instituting Prop 2 is going to hurt some people, and my concern is with people first, which is why I would have voted against it. But I also don't think there's a very large risk or towards very many people, so it's not something I feel so strongly against that it would change my opinion of a person. And you're awesome enough that it would take a LOT to make me reconsider that assessment.

Also I have to go make a reply to your last post so I'm going to cut this short with a virtual high-five because despite everything else Obama won and that's a great thing!

[lostsailors.livejournal.com]

It is!!

And yeah no worries, I understand everything you said and do actually agree with you! 2 was also just really important to me so if I think for like .0000000000000005 someone is saying, "that's not important" I am like OMG PUSH THE RED PANIC BUTTON, haha.
I was overjoyed that was able make it, but also see the huge disconnect that people were so moved by the plight of chickens, but not by a huge part of our own human community.

So yes, like you said- VIRTUAL HIGH FIVE. You too are awesome, Obama won, one step at a time, we'll all get there (and get married!).

[stagger-lee77.livejournal.com]

amen to your entire post!

[chadnfrood.livejournal.com]

I voted no on 2 and 8, for what it's worth. I dislike direct democracy, so "no" is my default response to ballot initiatives unless I see a compelling reason to vote otherwise. It looks like 8 passed, but there's a lawsuit challenging it on constitutional grounds. It looks like a long shot, but I really hope it goes through. And you know what? If it does, I'll genuinely enjoy hearing the anti-gay folks cry foul. Most decisions, especially decisions involving minority rights, should be handled far the fuck away from the "will of the people."

[kalika.livejournal.com]

That is a rather bizzare moral message.

In New Zealand we dealt with the gay marriage issue... 3? 4? years ago. It was kind of a wussy compromise called the Civil Union Bill which basically granted all of the legal rights of marriage without actually calling it marriage.

That said, getting 'civilised' sounds so much more fun ;0)

[sarcasticwriter.livejournal.com]

Uh, have you looked at the demographics of Los Angeles County? The dominant population of L.A. County is members of racial "minority" groups, all of which depressingly voted for Prop 8 in great numbers (Blacks: 70%, Latinos: 53%, Asians: 49%).

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

I wish I knew more about New Zealand's culture, both on a 'this is what most people eat for breakfast' level and a 'this is how people feel about things' level. I think the only way to get that sort of knowledge is to go there for an extended stay or pester people you know with lots of questions. I'm glad you guys have a culture that allowed you to deal with the issue maturely so long ago, but in America we just... don't. Yet. I think we're coming off to the world as a bunch of sexually repressed religious freaks, and I don't know how to keep that from happening, especially since that's how I view a lot of the opponents of gay marriage, too.

[kalika.livejournal.com]

We're an ex British colony (with the Queen as our official Head of State still) so it's very 'anglo saxon' - which is such a stupid term but everyone knows what it means so I will use it for convenience.

That said, we are also a nation of indigenous Maori (15% ish) and migrants (much bigger percentage) particularly from the Pacific Islands and Asia. We are little and young with conservative farmers and progressive cities and though we have a lot of the same issues as every country, it is smaller and easier to adress and we talk about our problems more.

I am now living in Melbourne, Australia and the differences in regards to race relations and the history with indigenous populations is astounding. In a bad way.

From an ouside view, the US does seem to be filled with religious freaks. Paranoid ones too! You just have such a large populations that only mobilise on social issues and a political party that sometimes does its best to incite fear and hate.

I particularly like NZ's way of voting on social issues. We are a parliamentary monarch, running under a mixed member proportional system (parties get the same percentage of seats in parliament as they do vote. They usually have to create alliances to get a majority and govern). On controversial issues (like the prostituion reform act, civil union bill) the parties all let their MPs vote according to their conscience, not down party lines.

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

This is all very interesting, but tell me: what does the average New Zealander eat for breakfast?

Also what is Vegemite, and is it delicious?

I am super jealous of New Zealand because they have more sheep than people, and while usually I would be against this I assume this means you eat a lot of lamb. I developed a taste for lamb in London, and Americans don't really eat it, so I haven't had almost any sense.

(From this you can surmise both that I am VERY HUNGRY right now, and also that 80% of my interest in the people of this world centers around their tasty foodstuffs).

[ladyfalcon.livejournal.com]

As a side note to this, more information:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272

[sarcasticwriter.livejournal.com]

I was responding to the commenter's disbelief that the county housing Hollywood would vote in favor of prop 8, when it's not that surprising, given LA county's massive population. Also, whether or not CNN's polling statistics were gathered from LA, it's well-documented and obvious from living there that "minority" is the vastly dominant population, and they obviously voted in at least 51% plus support for Prop 8.

As for that blogger, she needs to cool it, or at least have the decency to be equally offended on behalf of latino (the dominant population of LA county) and asian voters that it was noticed they supported prop 8 at least 51% percent of the time, too.

[kalika.livejournal.com]

Toast. Cereal. WHEATBIX! Farmies probably still eat bacon and eggs (ignoring all warnings about cholesterol). Vegemite is the Australian version, Marmite is proudly kiwi. I think it tastes like yeasty scum (which is incidentally pretty much what it is), so no, not so much.

And yes, a lot of lamb. Frolicking, adorably leaping, dead.